吉娜·陈是德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校新闻学院的助理教授。在本期节目中，我们将探讨新闻教育的变革与创新。.
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《数字出版现状》致力于为新媒体和技术领域的数字出版及媒体专业人士打造一个全新的出版物和社区。在本期节目中，我们采访了德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校新闻学院的吉娜·陈教授，探讨新闻教育领域的变革与创新。让我们开始吧。.
Vahe Arabian：你好，吉娜，你好吗？
吉娜·陈：我很好，谢谢。你呢？
Vahe Arabian：我也很好，谢谢。谢谢你的关心。谢谢你加入我们。鉴于你的背景，我想今天邀请你来这期节目，主要是想更多地了解一下现在的学生在进入数字媒体行业之前的发展方向，以及你的个人经历，因为你拥有非常丰富的经验。那么，我们先从你能简单介绍一下你的经历以及你为什么会选择学术界开始说起吗？
吉娜·陈：当然。我最初是在美国纽约州北部的一家报社做记者。我做了20年的记者和编辑。其中大部分时间是在纽约州锡拉丘兹的一家报社。我做过文字编辑、选题编辑，也当过分社社长。除了商业新闻之外，我几乎报道过所有领域。我报道过警务新闻、地方、州和县政府新闻，也报道过法院新闻。我曾短暂地从事育儿报道工作，主要撰写与母亲相关的话题。
吉娜·陈：在那段时间的尾声，美国的报业开始出现一些问题。我们报社开始裁员，我开始担心自己可能会丢掉工作。于是，我想，我还能做些什么呢？就在那时，我重返校园。我在雪城大学获得了大众传播学博士学位，毕业后，我开始在南密西西比大学任教。我在那里的大众传播与新闻学院任教两年。
吉娜·陈：四年前，我来到德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校，目前担任新闻学助理教授，同时也是媒体参与中心（一个研究新闻业及其改进方法的学术机构）的助理主任。
Vahe Arabian：那么，作为一名助理教授，同时还要负责新闻互动报道，你的日常工作是怎样的呢？
吉娜·陈：是的。澄清一下，我是新闻互动中心的助理主任。不过，你知道，我一天的大部分时间都花在教学或研究上。所以，我在中心的工作既包括实践性研究，也包括学术研究。典型的一天，我会写作、制作调查问卷，还会和媒体互动中心的客户沟通，制定项目，研究他们想要了解的新闻业特定方面。例如，如何让我们的评论显得不那么粗鲁，或者如何赢得受众的信任。我们主要与新闻机构或私人基金会签订合同，让他们提出项目方案。我一天的大部分时间都花在这些事情上，然后我还会花很多时间做一些传统的教授工作，比如教学、批改作业、讲课、与学生见面。
吉娜·陈：除此之外，我还会做自己的研究，研究网络互动，特别是与不文明行为相关的互动。我最近出版了一本关于网络不文明行为的书，书名是《网络不文明行为与公共辩论：恶言恶语》。我目前正在创作我的第三本书，探讨美国人为何会与政治人物进行个人互动。说实话，我大部分时间都花在了写作上。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ：您回答了我的另一个问题，即教学和写作的区别。那么，关于互动新闻，它是如何产生的？现在新闻机构会到大学获取信息，这种模式是如何运作的？
Gina Chen：嗯，你知道，它最初是由中心主任Talia Stroud发起的一个名为“互动新闻项目”的项目。她是德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校的副教授。她最初只是在工作中……一些机构有一些项目，他们需要一些帮助，她大约五年前就开始逐步开展这项工作。然后在十月份，我们正式成为大学的一个中心。Gina
Chen：这意味着我们有了一个更正式的名称。我们获得了一笔小额捐赠基金。但实际上，它的起源是新闻机构想要一些特定问题的答案，但他们不一定具备回答这些问题的研究背景或时间。
吉娜·陈：所以，他们会联系我们，说：“嘿，我们想知道这个。我们想解决这个问题。”然后我们会一起制定计划，通常是进行实验，测试他们如何改变内容、网站外观或与公众互动的方式，以提高受众参与度、提升用户对新闻网站的兴趣、提高用户对新闻网站的满意度。
吉娜·陈：所以，这很适合我。大约两年前，我开始与中心合作，当时它还叫“互动新闻项目”，算是非正式的合作，因为我对这个话题非常感兴趣。然后，我在今年一月成为了助理主任。
Vahe Arabian：祝贺你晋升。那么，你从这些机构学到的这些信息有多少会应用到你的教学中呢？
吉娜·陈：嗯，很多都会。我的意思是，每当我们与新闻机构或非营利组织合作开展项目时，我们都会撰写一份所谓的白皮书，它本质上是一份面向普通读者（非学术读者）的报告，总结了我们的发现。比如，我们测试了哪些内容，发现了哪些内容，哪些内容有效。
吉娜·陈：我曾在我的课程“网络不文明行为”中专门使用过这些报告。我用其中的一些报告向学生解释，有多少人阅读评论，哪些类型的人会阅读评论，以及哪些互动方式可以改善评论流。所以这些报告确实……我直接将其用于我的教学中，以指导我们在“网络不文明行为”课程中的教学内容。这门课旨在帮助学生应对或处理不文明行为，尤其是在他们进入职场后。
Vahe Arabian：为了确认一下，这些报告是课程的补充材料……是课程的一部分。是这样吗？
吉娜·陈：是的。通常情况下，我会先就此主题进行一次讲座，然后让他们阅读报告。你知道，这些报告篇幅相对较短，而且是为非专业读者撰写的。他们会阅读报告，然后我们会就当天讲座的内容进行课堂讨论。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ：那么，你觉得有了这些补充材料后，学生的参与度有何变化？
Gina Chen：我认为这很重要，因为它是一个非常贴近现实的例子。在中心，我们直接研究人们为什么关注新闻、如何关注新闻，以及我们可以如何改进。这些内容非常实用，而且与我的学生息息相关。我的学生大多是新闻学院的学生，他们要么打算从事新闻工作，要么从事与新闻相关的工作。所以，这些补充材料能让他们了解毕业后从事这些工作时可能会遇到的实际问题。
Vahe Arabian：学生们有机会参与中心的其他项目吗？
吉娜·陈：有的。我们有博士生研究助理，也就是正在攻读博士学位的学生，他们会协助我们进行研究。我们偶尔也会有硕士生参与，还有本科生研究助理。举个例子，我去年秋季选修了我的“网络不文明行为”课程，有个学生给我留下了非常深刻的印象，所以我聘请她今年秋季来中心工作。她将直接协助我们进行研究，完成一些符合她能力水平的任务，同时也能真正亲身了解新闻行业以及如何开展研究。所以，这其中也包含着重要的教育意义。
Vahe Arabian：这听起来非常实用，对学生的成长也很有益处，这真是太好了。就中心而言，或者更广泛地说，就新闻中心而言，据您所知，这种概念是比较新的吗？或者说，这种模式最初是什么时候在美国兴起的？您认为它是如何发展起来的？
吉娜·陈：嗯，我认为在大学设立研究中心当然不是什么新鲜事。德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校就有很多研究中心，研究方向各不相同。比如，我们有一个研究中心研究健康传播，还有一个研究创新。但我认为真正新颖的是，我们中心直接与新闻机构合作，解决真正实际的问题。
吉娜·陈：所以我们不仅仅是……你知道，有时学者会被指责只是高高在上，做着对任何人都没有影响的研究，但我们中心并非如此。我们也会做一些研究，并将研究成果发表在学术期刊上，这些研究对新闻机构、新闻媒体以及更广泛的美国民主社会都具有切实的、直接的实际意义。
吉娜·陈：所以我认为这才是相对较新的。其他大学也有一些类似的研讨会，但我觉得没有哪个研讨会能像我们这样，真正为新闻机构开展高水平的研究，以解决与新闻互动相关的具体问题。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ：我想，这可能比去找……或许比找市场解决方案提供商来解决问题更好。它不带偏见，而且正如你所说，它提供的是解决问题的高层次视角，而不是给出建议？
Gina Chen：没错。而且，我们带来的专业知识不仅来自研究，也来自新闻行业和新闻媒体运作方式方面的专家。正如我们之前讨论过的，我本人也是一名记者。所以我认为这带来了一个非常独特的视角，因为我们不是……你知道，新闻机构不会随便雇佣一个对这个话题一无所知的人来做调查。他们正在招聘对这个领域非常了解的人，以真正帮助他们解决自身业务中想要解决的问题。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ：这很有道理。关于中心的各项举措和其他方面，我们稍后再谈，但现在先回到正题。你当年学习新闻专业是什么样的？你觉得它和现在有什么不同？
Gina Chen：嗯，差别很大。我1989年本科毕业，专业是传播学。我工作的第一家报社是周报，当时我们甚至连排版机都没有。我们得在版面背面涂蜡才能把报纸装订起来，可见那是多早的年代了。Gina
Chen：我是在互联网时代之前做记者的，所以很明显，现在变化很大。我的意思是，我是在社交媒体时代之前做记者的，所以这些变化也相当显著。而且，那时候报纸还没有视频报道。当时只有电视台在使用视频，纸媒肯定不会做视频。所以我认为这是新闻报道方式的三大重大变化。
吉娜·陈：我认为如今记者需要的技能比我1989年毕业时要广泛得多，但有些东西却丝毫未变。我偶尔会在德克萨斯大学教一门基础新闻报道课。我们教学生如何写好导语，如何写出清晰的句子。这些都没变。我们教学生如何确保准确性，如何核实事实。这些也没变。事实上，现在可能更难了，因为如今犯错的途径比我刚入行时多得多。
吉娜·陈：所以我认为，如今记者需要的技能比我当年需要的要广泛得多。我基本上需要知道如何写作、如何提问、如何将信息整合为一个连贯的故事，以及如何查阅文件并从中收集信息。
吉娜·陈：现在的学生需要掌握所有这些技能，但他们还需要知道如何正确使用社交媒体，避免重复传播错误信息。他们必须知道如何使用视频、剪辑和录制。你知道，我们也会制作大量的音频和播客，所以他们需要掌握这些更专业的技能。我认为这些是这段时期内主要的异同点。
Vahe Arabian：你说过情况变得更加棘手……你说过方法基本相同，但他们必须更加谨慎。难道没有其他一些被纳入考量的技巧吗？或者其他什么……显然，你们使用的工具已经发生了变化，但你认为如今在事实核查中是否还有其他技巧被考虑在内？
吉娜·陈：嗯，我认为是有的。我认为，如今普通人和记者获取信息的渠道比过去要多得多。我刚入行的时候，采访别人时必须确认对方的身份。我必须核实他们提供的信息，比如出生日期、年龄等等，确保他们说的话都是真的。而现在，记者们面临的情况是，推特上可能会出现一些病毒式传播的、完全不实的信息。所以，他们也需要知道如何核实这些信息。
吉娜·陈：他们需要了解像Fact Checker、PolitiFact和Snopes这样的事实核查网站。他们还需要知道如何通过阅读多个账号来验证信息的真实性。如果你看到有人在推特上说……某个名人去世了，你需要在传播之前知道如何核实信息的真实性。你还需要阅读多个新闻来源，确保了解事情的全貌，然后再提出问题。
吉娜·陈：我也认为现在的记者经常直接使用推特上的内容，所以他们需要注意账号是否经过认证，账号是否真的来自其他记者，账号是恶搞账号还是假账号，以及是否是虚假新闻网站。有些虚假新闻网站纯粹是为了搞笑而创建的，所以他们需要警惕这些网站。他们还需要注意那些可能带有强烈党派倾向、提供的信息并不真实的新闻网站。所以，需要追踪的信息更多了。我的意思是，记者一直都希望新闻准确无误。
吉娜·陈：我认为另一个棘手的问题是，我们现在发布信息的速度比以前快得多。回想我刚入行做记者的时候，我会写好稿子，交给我的编辑。我的编辑会读一遍，然后另一个编辑会读一遍，再一个编辑会读一遍。一篇稿子可能要经过五个人才能发表在报纸上，所以有时间仔细核查所有内容。当时有多人阅读了我的报道。
吉娜·陈：如今，许多新闻机构并没有多位编辑审阅同一篇报道。他们通常也没有文字编辑。此外，由于有了互联网，人们都想尽快发布自己的故事，因此很容易在不进行充分核实的情况下就匆忙发布，而我们以前没有这样的选择。无论我做什么，我的报道最终都要等到下一份报纸才能刊登，而现在记者可以在五分钟内写好报道并发布到网站上或分享到推特上，所以我认为这确实改变了现状，也让新闻的真实性问题变得更加重要，但也更具挑战性。
Vahe Arabian：正如你所说，有很多因素需要考虑。你之前也提到过，以前人们认为学者是那些坐在常春藤塔里，只做自己的事情，发表内容的人，这当然很好，但现在你要和这些机构合作。我唯一想补充的是，您提到您在社交媒体时代之前就开始从事新闻工作，那么您认为现在那些渴望进入新闻行业、精通数字技术、并且伴随科技成长起来的年轻记者与社交媒体之间的差距有多大？您是如何在当今的教育中弥合这种差距的？陈吉娜
：嗯，就我而言，虽然我的新闻生涯始于互联网时代之前，但我的新闻生涯并非止于互联网时代之前。我于2009年离开了记者岗位，所以很明显，社交媒体当时已经存在了。在我离开报社之前，我就已经是社交媒体的重度用户了。事实上，我当时是我们报社探索社交媒体使用方法的人之一，这也激发了我对社交媒体研究的兴趣。当我成为一名学者，需要选择一个研究领域时，我对网络空间产生了浓厚的兴趣，因为我作为记者时就经常使用它。是的，我入行的时候互联网还没普及，但我职业生涯的后期却并非如此，我不得不随着科技的发展而不断进化。科技在不断变化，互联网出现了，社交媒体也出现了。我离开报社的时候，已经有一个很受欢迎的博客，当时我主要报道育儿方面的内容，还有一个很火的妈妈博客。所以，我对这些新技术非常熟悉，后来我又学习了视频制作和视频剪辑，这样我就可以指导下一代记者了。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ：这很有道理。你觉得在你所在的大学，或者美国其他大学里，还有其他一些以前是记者，现在从事学术研究的人，在工作中没有跟上时代的步伐吗？
Gina Chen：我觉得如果你在互联网普及之前就离开了新闻行业，那就很难跟上时代的步伐。因为你没有亲身经历过那个时期。但是，话虽如此，我认为很多教师都会做一些事情，比如在新闻编辑室接受更多培训，或者利用暑假在新闻编辑室实习，以更新自己的技能。所以，我确信全世界都有一些新闻学教授的技能没有跟上时代，但我认为很多教授的技能是更新的，并且他们也在努力提升自己的技能。我也认为我们必须不断地这样做，因为你不能做完就停下来。新闻行业一直在变化。虚拟现实就是一些新闻机构正在使用的技术之一。数据新闻最近也变得非常流行。所以，无论你何时离开新闻行业，你仍然需要不断更新自己的技能。因为我们会不断接触到新技术，这些新技术为我们提供了新的故事讲述方式。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ：这是你与即将入学的学生和有志成为记者的年轻人保持联系的主要方式吗？
Gina Chen：是的。嗯，我认为这很重要。我认为跟上新闻行业使用的技术发展步伐非常重要。新闻行业也在教授这些技术。我认为要密切关注新闻机构的发展动态也很重要。因为我们知道技术发展不会停止。我们不会停下来，然后说：“好了，就这样吧。我们不会再发明任何东西了。”所以，十年后，我可能会谈论一些与今天在我的新闻学院里教授的内容不同的内容，我认为这很棒。我的意思是，我们应该不断创新。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ： Gina，关于这一点，我想听听你的看法。你认为老师的年龄重要吗？我知道你一直都很了解情况，但是如果是一位更年轻的教授或讲师来教未来的新闻工作者，学生们的反应或与老师的互动方式会有什么不同吗？
Gina Chen：我不认为年龄是影响人们反应的因素。我想说的是，我认为拥有多元化的师资队伍非常重要。拥有一些经历过当今新闻工作者所不具备的经历的人加入教职队伍，肯定是有价值的。比如，他们拥有更丰富的经验。我也认为，聘请一些近期离开新闻行业的人士同样意义非凡。我们学院就设有讲师职位，就是为了体现这一点。这些教授通常没有博士学位，但拥有丰富的专业经验，尤其是近期在新闻行业的工作经验。这样一来，我们就能不断聘请到技能与时俱进的人才。我确实认为多元化的师资队伍至关重要。
吉娜·陈：你需要一些年轻的教职人员，也需要一些资深的教职人员。我认为学生对教师的评价并非基于他们的年龄，而是基于他们能否有效地传达所教授的信息。所以，就我认识的教授而言，有些比我年长的教授，我认为学生能从他们身上学到很多东西；有些比我年轻的教授，我认为学生也能从他们身上学到很多东西。但拥有多元化的人才组合是好事，因为这个行业不断发展变化。所以，当我们聘用一些刚离开这个行业的新人时，他们显然会提供一些资深人士所不具备的信息。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ：那么，您刚才提到有些记者已经不懂得如何做事了，而这些或许正是经验丰富的博士和教授们能够传授给学生的。我猜，老派的、以事实核查为核心的新闻报道方式是否已经过时了？
Gina Chen：就像我说的，我不想给人留下这样的印象：我认为在新闻学院工作很长时间就不好，因为我完全不这么认为。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ：不，当然不是。我只是想听听您的意见。Gina
Chen：我认为我们需要教给学生的很多东西并没有改变。教学生如何做好采访这件事本身并没有改变。这和20年前一样，20年后可能也一样。采访工具或许会改变，但提出能够引出生动故事的答案的问题的能力至关重要，而且不会改变。我认为写作能力也不会改变。我们有很多资深教师，他们在写作方面经验丰富。他们对于学生传授写作技巧至关重要。我认为深入研究文件的能力也不会改变。如今，我们或许会利用数据新闻和计算机进行挖掘，但这与我们过去获取纸质文件并逐页查阅的方式并无本质区别。
吉娜·陈：所以我认为所有这些仍然很重要。我们需要在新兴领域拥有专业知识的教授。例如，我教授社交媒体新闻课程。我们当然需要这方面的专家。我们最近也聘请了一位教授数据新闻课程的新教师。我们需要这方面的专业知识。但新闻业还有很多其他方面是不变的，实际上也不会改变。学生们也需要在这些方面打下坚实的基础。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ：谢谢你强调这一点。我只是想把这一点说清楚。那么，你成为学者的动机与其他人不同，你听说过其他人转行进入学术界或从事相关职业的原因吗？
Gina Chen：我认为我当时做出这个转变是出于经济原因，因为我害怕失业。但即便在那之前，我也一直想在职业生涯后期回到新闻界成为一名教授。所以，我认为部分原因是我已经做了20年记者。我做了20年的记者，我热爱这份工作，但我已经准备好迎接新的挑战了。另一方面，我希望能够进行更广泛的研究。你知道，新闻报道需要做调查，但作为一名教授，你的工作需要进行更深入的研究。你可以做实验，可以进行访谈，访谈对象可能是100人而不是12人。
吉娜·陈：所以，我真的很想做这些事情。我觉得，在我那些成功转型的朋友中，情况通常是多种因素交织在一起的。一方面，他们喜欢现在的工作，但不确定是否想一辈子都做这个，而且他们也想做一些相关的工作。我认为，对一些人来说，他们有点担心能否保住新闻工作，因为现在保住工作越来越难了，对于那些在新闻行业工作多年的人来说更是如此。但我不想让人觉得我或者大多数人当教授是因为想逃离新闻工作，因为我完全没有这种感觉。时机确实和经济状况有关，但说真的，我热爱我现在的工作。
吉娜·陈：我热爱我现在的工作，就像我热爱当记者时一样。我只是准备好开启人生新篇章，尝试不同的方式。教书和出去报道新闻是截然不同的。教那些不懂新闻的人真的很有成就感。我想这正是很多人从新闻从业者转行成为新闻学教授的原因。
Vahe Arabian：是的。我自己也教过一些书，所以我能体会那种感觉。因为教别人，你也能学到东西，从某种意义上说，你甚至能更好地掌握这门技艺。
吉娜·陈：哦，确实如此。是的。当你要教别人的时候，你必须对它非常非常了解。因为如果你自己都不懂，就教不了别人。所以，我从学生身上学到很多，也从教学中学到很多，因为它能帮助我在脑海里梳理思路，“我是怎么做到的？我是怎么让这些人跟我说话的？我是怎么发现这个故事的？”然后才能把这些讲给我的学生听。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ：我同意你的看法。那么，Gina，当学生们报名参加德克萨斯大学，或者，我们姑且就用德克萨斯大学新闻学院的课程和学位时，你收到的反馈是关于他们为什么报名的？你过去观察到的情况如何？自从你开始教书以来，过去五到十年里，你有没有看到学生报名的原因发生变化？
Gina Chen：是的。嗯，我的意思是，我还没在那里待上五年或十年，所以没法从历史角度来谈。但我们发现，很多报读新闻学院的学生都想走传统的新闻从业之路。他们想当电视新闻主播、新闻主播，想在报社工作，想成为调查记者。但也有一些学生——我认为这更像是一种转变——不想从事传统的新闻工作，而是希望掌握我们教授的技能和工具，以便将来能够从事其他职业。所以我认为这可能是过去五到十年来的一个变化。当然，过去也有一些学生拿到新闻学学位后并没有成为记者。
吉娜·陈：但我认为现在学生们选择攻读新闻学学位时会说：“这个学位会教我如何写作，如何讲故事，如何拍摄、剪辑和制作视频故事，如何拍摄或录制音频故事。”这些技能很多行业都需要，不仅仅是新闻业。“它会教我如何运营社交媒体账号，如何专业地管理社交媒体。”所以我认为这算是一种转变。我们的一些学生会说：“我想上这些课，因为我想学习这些技能，然后我想运用这些技能去私营公司工作，或者去政府部门工作，或者我想成为一名律师。”
吉娜·陈：我们确实有这样的学生。他们想学习写作，因为律师需要大量的写作。所以我认为，新闻学学位确实比过去更加多元化了。这不仅仅是那种培训你进入新闻机构工作的职业学校。它的范围越来越广。你将学习一系列技能，而这些技能的运用方式可能与其他同学截然不同。Vahe
Vahe Arabian ：这是否影响了你的教学方式？鉴于它变得越来越多元化，有哪些积极和消极的影响？这是否对你产生了任何影响？
Gina Chen：是的。我的意思是，我认为确实有影响。在我来到德克萨斯大学之前，他们重新设计了课程，让你可以选择不同的学习路径，而不必说“好的，我要……”。过去你必须设定目标，“我要从事报纸工作。我要从事广播工作。”而现在，你在选课方面有了更大的自由度。所以你不必局限于某种类型的新闻机构。这是在我来之前就有的变化之一。我认为其他变化在于我们增加了一些更具广泛吸引力的课程。比如，我的社交媒体新闻课就是一个很好的例子。我们每学期有150名学生，其中一些是新闻专业的学生，一些是其他专业的学生。我们对这门课进行了调整，使其对那些不一定想从事新闻工作的学生也适用。我们很多课程都采用了这种做法，让学生学习到这类技能，但这些技能可以应用到他们未来的任何职业中。
吉娜·陈：我认为正因如此，我们一直在不断更新课程设置。我们新增了一门课程，让学生学习如何制作应用程序。比如，他们会和计算机科学专业的学生合作开发手机应用程序。这样，新闻专业的学生和计算机科学专业的学生就可以一起工作了。新闻专业的学生会提出一些想法，比如哪些功能在新闻领域或更广泛的传播领域可能有用，而计算机科学专业的学生则拥有编程技能来实现这些功能。 But they end up with a product that they could market anywhere. It doesn't have to be in journalism. We don't restrict their ideas to be, “This is something a news organization would use.” So I think, those are some examples of we have updated our curriculum so that it's giving students options of skills that they want, that they can use however they want to use them, whatever career they end up in.
Vahe Arabian : So, Gina, what's the process now in determining how, when you're advising or reviewing the syllabus, when to add new subjects and, the second part of the question is, how can students now determine their pathway without having that prior experience and knowledge at the university?
Gina Chen: Well, I think there're two questions. One is, I mean, our curriculum, we have certain required classes. So, that ensures that the students will get the base thing that they need if they're going into a journalism career or a non-journalism career. So they're required to take a reporting class. They're required to take a photography class. They're required to take some more advanced levels of those classes. So, there's not a danger that they're going to get out of school and only know one thing. In fact, they're going to be able to tailor what they learn, you know, certain classes you have to take your sophomore year. Certain classes you have to take your junior year.
Gina Chen: So there're still requirements, it's just there's more flexibility in that. Now, as far as updating, I mean, I think there're two aspects to that. Every year we talk about, as a faculty, what skills are our students going to need to know in the future that we're not teaching them now, and we update it. And that's sort of how the apps class came about. That is also how we'd added some data journalism classes and data visualization classes. That's how those came about. And they can use those skills as frequently as they want. So, a good example of this is I teach a social media journalism class. I recently took it over from another professor.
Gina Chen: We add different platforms as those become more important for news and information. When we started the class, Snapchat hadn't been invented, for example, but then when Snapchat was invented we added a Snapchat component to the class to teach the students how to post stories on Snapchat. Even stories, news stories, because while someone my age probably isn't on Snapchat that often, young people are and they actually get some of their news from Snapchat. So, that's a way we can sort of update really quickly. You know, I, with my social media journalism class, I will probably change the syllabi every semester as new things are invented or change.
Vahe Arabian : Is that under your control or do you have to validate that through the faculty?
Gina Chen: No. I mean, we can change our syllabi pretty much easily. As long as we're teaching the core part. So, that's pretty easy to do, to update it. For example, the professor that's teaching it this summer, he's going to add an Instagram stories component to it because that wasn't available when we first wrote the syllabus and then I'll probably use that in the fall. But as new platforms emerge that we can use for news, we'll use it. Another example is we used to use Storify in the class, which is an application that collects tweets and Facebook posts together, and then Storify kind of went away and stopped being free so we don't use that anymore. Now we use Twitter moment. So, for a class that involves technology, we can be very fluid and update it. In the syllabus itself, it doesn't have to go through the approval process, you know, the way changing the whole curriculum would.
Vahe Arabian : When do you determine when you have to change the curriculum?
Gina Chen: I guess we usually talk about it, kind of an ongoing discussion, at our faculty meeting where we, say, people will propose a class and say, “Hey, I really want to teach a class on this.” And we can easily add a class to the course schedule without changing the whole curriculum. So a good example of that is, last year, or last fall, I wanted to add a class about online incivility because that was becoming such a particular issue. Basically, I talked to the chair of my department and said, “I want to add this class.” And he said yes, and we put it on the schedule. Now, we didn't change the whole curriculum, in that students aren't required to take it. It's an elective, but it's pretty easy to add an elective, and then an elective if we wanna turn it into a required course, then there's a procedure where we update the curriculum every few years, but between those updates, we could easily add new classes that we feel like a really timely or relevant to what's going on.
Vahe Arabian : How did you determine demand, if whether or not students would actually take on that class?
Gina Chen: Well, that's a little bit of a guessing game. We don't always know, but I can tell you the Online Incivility class, my first semester teaching it, I got 40 students, which is a lot for our classes. That's a pretty big class in our school, so if we didn't get enough students, they'll just cancel the class, so it's really not a risk. If I didn't get enough students, they'll cancel the class, I would be teaching something else. Our social media class when we started that, we had no idea how popular it'd be. Now, we get 150 students every semester, and we easily could have more if we opened it to more students. There's usually a waiting list, so I think part of being a professor is being on top of what students are interested in, and also what skills they need.
Gina Chen: If you pitch a class that fits all of those, students will enroll in it. They'll be interested in a class, the art class, for example. When they introduce the class where they design the app, it's very popular, and because it's something students wanna know how to do today.
Vahe Arabian : Gina, just back to the point that I was mentioning before how can you guide students to, like you said, 'cause the parts on, as clear as before, just a trade, learning the trade, how do you help students guide to what path they wanna take once they graduate?
Gina Chen: Well, there're two answers to that. One is making sure they complete all the credits and prerequisites that they have to graduate. We have advisors who work directly with the students to do that. If there's a certain pathway, even though we don't have the same divisions between, say, newspaper and TV that we used to have, we still have required a class that every student needs to go to. That's a more formal process where they work with their advisor.
Gina Chen: We said, “You won't be able to graduate if you don't get enough credits in this particular area,” but then using the informal process, where you meet the student in class and you talk to them and say, “What do you wanna do?” You teach a recording class, and you get to know your students, and say, “If you love doing this, what's your future goal?” You can say, “You really should consider taking this class.” Usually, we can't force them to take it, so usually, you have that relationship with a student, so they are encouraged by the support you're showing them, so then you can kind of unofficially say, “Hey, make sure you take these classes because I think you'll get a lot out of them, and they really will fit your interest.”
Gina Chen: I think we do both. We do the formal system where, “These are the credits you have to take,” but then the informal system where you're just … I have students come to my office all the time, who will like, “Here's what I'm gonna do with my life. Should I take this class or this class?” I'm able to, sort of informally, say, “Well, if you love writing, take this class. If you love video more, take this class.” I think many of our professors have those informal relationships with students where they kind of guide them.
Vahe Arabian : What about for the larger universities where that professor or lecturer has multiple tutorials and classes, and they can't really develop that one-to-one as an informal or like you said as close to you as you have. Do you think this type of students fall through the gaps, and that helps them become more incisive in terms of what they wanna do?
Gina Chen: Well, I'm sure those students will fall through the gaps but the University of Texas at Austin is certainly not a small university. We have 50,000 students. Our department is very focused on our students, and I think that's a strength of our department, so I don't know, I'm sure there're universities where there isn't that relationship, but one thing about us, we're an accredited journalism program, and part of that, our core classes, our core skill classes are required to be small, so when a student takes the basic recording class, they're not gonna have more than 20 students in that class, because that's a requirement of our accreditation as an accredited journalism school.
Gina Chen: Now, certainly in upper division classes, like my social media journals and class for the 150 students, I don't know every single student in that class, but I still have students in that class coming to my office hours and talking to me. So I guess, an answer to your question, I don't think the problem is whether you're at a big university or a small university. Because we're a big university, it's just you wanna find a school where those individual conversations with students are valued. I think that is the case in the school journalism where I work, it's definitely valued. That is an expectation of my job that I'm not just gonna slop that off to a TA, that I'm available for students and I talk to students.
Gina Chen: Because we have the introductory skill classes which are relatively small, that helps because it enables us to get to know them better, so then you kinda check in with them, you see 'em in the hall a couple years after your class and they'll be like, “Hey, how're things going?” You have a relationship with them. Will every professor do that? Probably not, but I think at any university, the best professors do that.
Vahe Arabian : Yeah, but I think in any students life, they always have that impressionable lecturer or teacher because of either their knowledge or the fact that they're being able to develop a relationship, so I agree with you. It's definitely a crucial value to have at the university. With that, I guess, are there any other tools that you use to gather feedback 'cause, for example, when I went to university, they always used to provide us survey links to fill out, to provide faculty with regular feedback. Do you use any other tools to get a feedback on the curriculum?
Gina Chen: Yeah, the university sends the evaluation to the students, either in person or online at the end of each semester, so the students both rate the professor on a quantitative scale, like a 1 to 5 type of scale, and then there's also a place where they could put comments. Those are used as part of our annual promotional evaluation, so when we go up for either promotion or tenure or just the annual evaluation, one of the things they look at is how we do our student evaluations. My department takes them very seriously, so it's important for us to have good student evaluation.
Gina Chen: I think that's a more formal way. Certainly, the students are able to give some feedback, and that feedback is available to other students. If a student wants to take my class next semester, they can log into our computer system and read my evaluations from previous semesters, and see what other students thought of you. That is another tool for the student to be like, “Hey, do I wanna take a class with this professor? Is this gonna be a good fit for me?” Will the students do that or not? I don't know, but I would guess they probably, some of them do.
Vahe Arabian : That makes sense. I think that's very great that you said that 'cause even to my impression, sometimes when you fill out a survey you think they might not have been listening, but it's good to hear that, and for those students, when they hear this podcast, as well.
Gina Chen: Right.
Vahe Arabian : Just a top-level question, is there a system in the US, the university, faculty, are there ranking systems in the US say, “If you wanna go to journalism school, this is the best journalism school that you go to?”
Gina Chen: Yeah, there're ranking systems, several different ways. One thing is accreditation. That you're accredited by the independent body, and then US News & World Report does a ranking every year, where they rank the school based on various criteria, everything from cost to graduation rate, so students can certainly look those … They google top 10 journalism schools, we usually come up on that list, and they can see the criteria that news organization use to rank them, and there's other ranking out there by other private organizations. It's not like an official government ranking or anything like that, but there's a ranking by either news organizations or like private companies that will rank them based on different factors.
Anything from cost to graduation rate. It's just basically, the various rankings sort of all do it a little bit differently, but the ones from US news and world report, are sort of the ones a lot of people will refer to.
Vahe Arabian : What're the ones that students commonly refer to and what're the ranking systems which are internally used as part of your ongoing review or the course?
Gina Chen: Well, I'm not sure what you mean, students, if they're looking, say, to find out how good is this university ranked, they will probably most likely go to US News & World Report which releases the big report every year. That ranks universities in all different ways. Category system, major state universities, private universities, small liberal arts school. Internally, we certainly are happy when we're ranked high on those, but at least to my knowledge, there's not some kind of internal ranking of the colleges or university.
Vahe Arabian : You don't use any of the external reports as part of internal performance reviews?
Gina Chen: Well, there're internal performance reviews of individual employees. Faculty members got to review every year, but we wouldn't necessarily be critiqued on where our school ranked. We would be critiqued on our course evaluations and our publication, how frequently we publish.
Vahe Arabian : That makes sense. I understand. Gina, looking ahead, what're some of the initiatives that you have in place, do you see and beyond, for yourself personally, and for the faculty and for engaging users as well?
Gina Chen: Yeah, well, I guess my personal goals are very lined with, I guess, these professionals goals of I like doing what I'm doing. I want our journalism school to continue to be one of the best in the country, and I have high hopes that it'll be because I think we have an innovated faculty, that were constantly talking about, “What can we do better?” I think from a research standpoint, my research with the Center for Media Engagement, we're very excited about taking on more and broader projects that not only look at those discrete issues with particular news organizations but look at bigger issues across the industry that can be more generalizable to other news organizations and more helpful to other news organizations.
Gina Chen: I guess my goals are to continue doing what we're doing and continuing to have a high level of excellent, well, teaching at the university, which I think we have some, and also in research through the Center.
Vahe Arabian : Absolutely, and I wish you're putting the efforts. I realized, and everyone else appreciates it more and more, so I know this might be general but just to give some general career advice to students, aspiring journalists or people who're interested in social media, what's the advice that you give or you would give them for choosing this course and pursuing their passion for as long as you have?
Gina Chen: Yeah, well, my best advice would be not to be afraid. That don't be afraid if you don't understand everything at the beginning because most of these skills are very teachable. We can teach you how to write, we can teach you how to edit, we can teach you how to tell a story, so if this makes you passionate, stick with it. Don't be daunted if you get a bad grade. One bad grade doesn't mean you aren't destined to do this. The other, I guess, good advice would be to have fun with what you're doing. I think one of the parts that I loved about being a journalist was it was fun. That's what I love about being a journalism professor.
Gina Chen: If you aren't enjoying it, you might wanna think about doing something else because you want to have a job that you enjoy doing, but don't be daunted by any one mistake or one bad grade because you wanna look at the big picture, and I guess that's what I tell any student, really. Whether they're going into journalism or not.
Vahe Arabian : Fun might mean a bit different to everyone else, so do you mean fun in terms of storytelling aspect or finding that script or finding that perspective that someone who might not have uncovered?
Gina Chen: Yeah, I guess I started, I became a journalist initially because I like to write and I was looking for a way to write and make a living, but when I got into journalism, I loved interviewing people, I loved talking to people and hearing their stories. I loved that they trusted me with their stories, and I loved trying to capture in my writing, what they had told me, so I loved that part of it. I also loved sort of the part where you can make small changes. I loved doing stories that actually improved people's lives. That I did a story once about the funding of childcare was being done in the county where I lived was flawed and it was really hurting low-income childcare centers and I wrote a package of stories about it and they changed the formula.
Gina Chen: That was a very gratifying day for me because I felt like, “Wow, it's very few jobs where you get to be that watchdog for government, and actually effect change.” I found that really fun, and I think the same thing. This sort of fun being the journalism professor is that I get to write, which is what got me in the beginning. I get to tell stories, which I loved and I get to affect students' lives. I think there're things I like about both fields are sort of the same. It's just a little bit different.
Vahe Arabian : Different audience, essentially.
Gina Chen: Yeah.
Vahe Arabian : They're a different audience and like you said, that gratifying feeling of being able to teach students.
Gina Chen: Yes, exactly.
Vahe Arabian : Awesome. Thank you for your time.
Gina Chen: Great.
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